East Coast Enduro Association: What type of fuel is everyone using in their 2 strokes? - East Coast Enduro Association

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What type of fuel is everyone using in their 2 strokes?

#31 User is offline   Lissa M. Arsenault 

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 02:22 PM

The government at work again, mandating what's "best" for us (and their election campaign donor's wallets). Nevermind the fact that for the few pennies you save at the pump per gallon with ethanol currently (thanks government subsidies) is voided with the couple mpg drop in fuel economy. What they SHOULD do (but won't) is offer straight pump AND make E-85 more available while urging more car manufactures to offer more Flex Fuel Vehicles. This way they could engineer and tune these vehicles to benefit the most mpg from ethanol instead of the poorer fuel economy and issues associated with vehicles NOT designed for any ethanol are experiencing.
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#32 User is offline   Mike Soudas 

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 03:36 PM

E85 is a joke.. it is a marketing / political circle jerk...

Even if you tuned a E85 vehicle perfectly it is going to get 30-40% less fuel mileage..
Ethanol has better octane but it takes almost twice as much to produce the same power or a bit more power..
Typical E85 Ford Edge.. 32 mpg on E10 and 25mpg on E85.. I have one in my shop now..info from the customer.. She pays $3.10 for E10 and $2.53 for E85.. Very close to the same cost, I agree the E85 is better for motherearth on the emissions point but how much bad stuff used in growing the corn.. plus the Fertilizer and equipment for the cracking process, that consumes loads of Petroleum in one form or another..
Is there a TRUE saving or a wash or do we loose a bit..?.

Or government and media..land of smoke and mirrors..

sorry for the diversion.. heated lunchtime debate...
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#33 User is offline   CARL REHATCHEK 

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:52 PM

Troy,

In my situations were are working with it entering and exiting the motor long before it hits the muffler.
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#34 User is offline   Chris Giordano 

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:05 PM

Interesting topic...

And I'm probably going to jinx myself now..but so far, so good on my seals....

I run a Honda Cr250r....and since day one she's been on a diet of:

  • Sunoco 93 fuel (as much as possible, about 90%-95% of the time)-which is presently at 10 ethenol...soon to go up..
  • Bel-Ray H1R mixed at 40:1 in the gas, and
  • Bel-Ray's 80w gearcase oil...
  • I've read through the posts, and saw there's some discussion about bikes that sit around versus getting ridden more often..
If it helps in your analysis, here's a breakdown of my records:
2010 : 21 days ridden 86 hours
2009: 29 days ridden 117 hours
2008: 24 days ridden 101 hours
Total 74 days ridden 304 hours


I measure my gearcase oil everytime I change it, and thankfully it's been consistent. I recently replaced the top end, which was in great shape, and at that point, the crank was well within spec...The minute I notice the idle hanging, or any loss in gear oil i'll report back....All this talk about these new gas blends are driving me nuts...I was considering buying an older used truck...but I don't know what to expect now... Can I expect that any of the internal rubber seals on an older engine will begin to detoriate faster? At what point will (or do) manufacturers begin to use seals and rubber components that won't be affected?

This post has been edited by Chris Giordano: 05 January 2011 - 08:54 PM

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#35 User is offline   mike walters 

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:11 PM

On a related topic, how long can pre-mix be stored? 2 weeks? 3 months? a year?
I also think there is most definitely a shelf life to the 2-stroke oils.
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#36 User is offline   Frank Weaver 

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:35 AM

View Postmike walters, on 05 January 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

On a related topic, how long can pre-mix be stored? 2 weeks? 3 months? a year?
I also think there is most definitely a shelf life to the 2-stroke oils.

It's not the oil, it's the gas, specifically, the more volatile components plus the now the ethanol, which can bind with water, just like in our beer, whiskey and oh so many other wonderful drinks.
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#37 User is offline   Lissa M. Arsenault 

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:20 AM

Chris, if you are confident with your mix and it works for you, stick with it. Every bike, riding style and situation is different. I don't know our amount of running hours (it's alot), but Rob and my bikes see use every weekend at least once (and if we're really lucky, maybe twice). We don't skip too many weekends either (unless one of us is sick, which seems to be the case a lot lately).

Also, the one thing I've noticed when the seals are bad is that it isn't as much of an issue when riding in the rocks since the RPM's are lot lower. The bikes seem to consume a lot less trans oil, if barely any, when the RPM's are lower (off the main). At a sand run if the seal goes bad, they'll burn through almost a whole quart of trans juice before 70 miles! (That's why I always stash a Qt. of trans juice in my pit bag, just in-case.) If the trans oil burning doesn't make the bike "blubber" (it usually doesn't, surprisingly, it just feels a lil' fat), I would probably never know the seal was bad when riding outside of South Jersey, but since 97% of our trail riding (and half the races) are here, it's a big issue.

Mike, with pre-mix gas, just like Frank said, usually the gas will go bad before the oil loses it's ability to lubricate. Current E-10 pump fuel is only stable for about 2-3 weeks before it goes bad or phase separation (ethanol losing it's ability to stay mixed in the petro). Also, especially dependent upon how it's stored, the E-10 because of the ethanol content will lose it's octane rating (anti-ping/knock factor) as it absorbs water.

For pre-mix oils, most conventional, blended and synth oils will stay mixed in fuel (though I always shake a can a little before I pour) except bean oils. Straight Castor bean oils are fantastic because of their super high flashpoint, but do not stay mixed in colder temps and MUST be used within two days of being mixed before the oil loses it's ability to properly lubricate (petro breaks the bean oil down quickly). We've tried multiple varieties of pre-mix oils over the years. Because of the seal issues, I've done a lot of homework on pre-mix oils flashpoints, synth versus conventional versus blended versus bean, before settling on a blended mix (Maxima "Super M") for our pre-mix ratio (32.1) and riding conditions. If we don't use up a batch of fuel before 3 weeks, I won't put it in the bikes.
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#38 User is offline   mike walters 

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 05:45 PM

Excellent, excellent info. Thanks.
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#39 User is offline   C.J. Ashe 

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 10:48 AM

This is C.J.`s dad Greg
I have been reading Through your post about the fuels and additives And in my opinion This may not be a fuel issue this may be a clutch, trans heat issue
making the crank hold heat more than it should be . I have been an auto tech for a long time and the last 3 years My son C.J. has been running a KTM 50 PRO SR .
He was having seal hardining and trans oil burn .The 50cc uses a wet centrifical clutch so the trans oil gets real hot, at first I thought it might just be the way he rides the bike
ie:on and off the throttle bliping the bike .So Without him knowing I tightened up the clutch pack so he would have to go wide open throtle to go anywhere
the bike still had allot of heat issues . This may sound like a commershal but it isnt I tried this additive in his trans oil "too cool" link added http://www.two2cool....uct_p/06035.htm
I started using this additive in his trans and it stopet hardining his seal to the combustion chamber .We have been running this oil additive for the last 2 years without any problems.

The reason I am saying this is I dont think that your problem is your fuel .If it was your fuel wouldnt every one be complaining about this ?
Why dont you go out and get an infrared thermometer and run your bike like you race it and check your trans oil temp .
drain and get new oil, add additive and see if this lowers your temp then use it for a year and see if this doesnt fix your seal problem.
I dont think its fuel related
just a thought !
it worked for me on the 50
You both could be clutching too much creating too much heat .did you teach her to ride ? do you both clutch the same way ?
Greg
Oh btw we use VP u4.4 and belray 2 stroke synthetic lube last year and a half -before the belray and u4.4 we used sunoco race fuel and bg 2 stroke additive for 2 years
I have found that with the belray I dont foul plugs. bel

This post has been edited by C.J. Ashe: 17 April 2011 - 01:51 PM

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#40 User is offline   Rob Aldakimov 

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 10:32 PM

I thought it might be a heat issue also, but, we had 2 03 KX250s that never had seal issues. Same riding style etc. We both bought leftover 04s one at the end of 05 and one at the end of 06. Almost immediately with my 04, the one bought at the end of 06, I started to have issues. Same with her 04. Lissa knew how to ride before I met her and Ive been racing since 85 and never had crank seal issues on any of my other bikes. I actually abused the clutch ALOT more and was a more aggresive rider in the past. I used to replace the clutch a couple of times a year. Now Im on the second year on the same clutch. I just rebuilt Lissa' 07 KX250 and used a set of Cometic crank seals that are supposed to hold up to the ethanol based fuels. So far so good. We also switched to straight race gas. Cam 2 110 32:1 Maxima Super M and rejetted to suit the Cam 2
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#41 User is offline   Jeffrey Pasqua 

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 07:50 AM

View PostRob Aldakimov, on 28 December 2010 - 09:01 PM, said:

Lissa and I have been having a chronic crank seal problem with our KXs for the last 4 years or so. I am replacing crank seals constanly on them. Everyone that comes out have been rock hard causing the engine to stink trans oil. This season we started out with new motors to eliminate any chance that it was my assembly of the engines that was causing it. On my bike I found a brand new KX250 engine with 0 hours on it from a guy that parts bikes on Ebay. Lissa's 07 KX250 was brand new at the start of the season. Ive switched 2t oils, changed my ratios from 50:1 to 32:1 and 40:1. We used Motul, Golden Spectro and currently use Maxima Super M at 32:1 with a 50/50 mix of Cam 2 and 92/93 octane pump fuel. (Sorry this is long but a little background is needed)
Ive noticed that Lissa' bike started smoking and using up trans oil towards the end of the summer. Mine made it to Stump Jumper when I noticed excessive oil consumption. We started to think it was our riding style, excessive clutching getting the bottom end too hot. Ive never had this problem before on any of my Yamahas and Hondas and also older Kawasakis.
Earlier today I stumbled across a thread on another site about crank seal failure on vintage bikes due to the ethanol that is now present in all pump fuels around my area. They are having issues with seal failures, fiber glass tanks falling apart etc. The fix is a switch to Viton seals. I have heard of cars having multiple issues with their fuel systems due to the ethanol also. I checked my manual and it says not to use any fuel with 10% ethanol. I believe the gas stations are up to 15% now. So what type of fuels are you using and have you had any issues? Im hoping that I dont have to switch to straight race gas!



Very interesting, for the first time ever on all of my yamaha's( or any bike) I had to replace a crank seal on my practice bike two weeks ago. The bike is last years enduro bike so it has some time on it, but I have NEVER had to replace one in the past. It was on the ignition side, but seemed very hard. I always use Cam 2 purple (110 leaded) and super 92/93- 50/50 as well. I always buy all of my fuel (pump gas) in Feb when it is the cheapest. Last year I bought WaWA super to mix and noticed that it did not seem as fresh. I normally buy Amoco/BP. Its the only fuel you can burn in your coleman grill, lol. I think that you are on to something with the ethanol crap. There is a slight chance that since they have not made the Kawi in a few years now (?) that all the seals are a bit old sitting on the shelf to begin with? You probably have the fix already with the different seals... Good luck!

On a side note. Over the past 25 years, I have spent many hours testing on dyno's, racing, and real world driving with numerous race fuels (Cam 2, VP, Unical, Power mist, torco, and av fuel). Used it in drag cars, bikes, and boats. The main reason I use the Cam 2 is for the lead, as most of you know is lubricates and keeps things running cooler, it is not giving your average bike any more power. It will also prevent the detonation with todays junk fuel. Most of the leaded race fuels are a good thing for this, but the burn rate, and specific gravity is a bit different, geared for High compression. Unless you are running over 12:1 nominal compression and/or are willing to rejet you will not see power improvements. The Av fuel is a improvement over todays pump gas because it has some lead and 96/97 Octane. It was much better before they went to the Low Lead formulas a few years back... price last year was running at $4.84 gal at my local airport. Not a bad price considering todays super price.
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#42 User is offline   ken wadle 

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 10:44 PM

My vote is it’s an ethanol problem. I’ve seen this on many two strokes now. KTM has changed many of their O-rings to viton but don’t specify what their seals are made of. I had problems with my 300 using aftermarket junk seals and now went back to the stock $25 :angry: ones. I would recommend just ordering some viton seals from a bearing house. Reading through the post I think that what you we’re going to do next ? One word of caution on using generic seals though, get one with the metal body exposed. I used rubber coated body seals and they moved. Mine install from the outside so this may now be an issue for you, but mine actually got sucked into the bore near the bearing and leaked like crazy. When I removed them they popped right out and almost flew across the garage. The exposed metal body seals have a much higher coefficient of friction to stay put. If you want to convince yourself it’s the fuel, take two new seals and put each into a jar of fuel, one race gas and one pump junk. Let them soak for a while. I bet the ethanol makes’um rock hard and brittle. Just be glad you don’t have a boat !!!

I have also used avgas for over 15 years with no problems, but only in 2-smokes. I agree that it’s not made for our application and not sure what it does to those valve / cam thingies, but in a 2-stroke it burns clean. Power valve, piston crown and head all look like new, never a jetting or pinging problem and excellent engine life with Maxima Super-M at 40:1. Recently I’ve been running pump junk with fatter jetting or less advance with ok performance. You get some spooge but hey, times are tough and I’m cheap. Good luck, splitting cases for a $5 part sux……….
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#43 User is offline   Rob Aldakimov 

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 01:34 AM

Update on our seal issue. Lissa and I have been using Cam 2 110 straight for about a year now with no seal issues. Though we havent raced much we do ride almost every weekend. My 500 was rebuilt using OEM seals and her 250 has a set of Cometic viton seals and seem to be holding up fine. My DRZ dualsports carb gets gummed up if it sits for extended periods, usually 2 months, this is with pump gas.
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#44 User is offline   chris stonebrink 

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:12 AM

ive hear about airplane fuel befor you can go to any airport i believe and get it you know that fuel is good no one wants to drop out of the sky :huh:
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