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2012 Ktm xc250 2 stroke updates from testing

#16 User is offline   Ryan Fitzpatrick 

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:18 AM

There was a Jersey Devil sighting last sunday in Green Bank.
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#17 User is offline   JIM AIELLO 

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:53 PM

View PostGlenn Anderson, on 27 February 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

View Postskip stoner, on 10 January 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Jim, I've had trouble in the past with the Marshall slide, double check it, it might be a .5 if so go to Sudco for a true .0


Skip or Mike
Do either of you have one of the "Marshal" slides handy?
Is there the trademark Keihin lopsided K stamp near the slide cut #?
I'm trying to determine if these are genuine Keihin or a knockoff.

For your info all genuine Keihin slides actually measure .6 mm larger than what they are stamped. A 6.0 measures 6.6 MM, 6.5 measures 7.1 MM and a 7.0 measures 7.6 MM. Do NOT confuse this .6 with a half size.

Here's a few photos to help. One is the stock slide and the other is from Marshall. Claimed a 6.0 6.6. Second photo is the 6 marking. Hope you up your game Glen. Fuel injection I'm told is coming. this 6 slide removes bottom blubber and replaces with a crisp responsiveness when opening of the throttle. Also decrease pilot jet size by one. better gas mileage too!
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#18 User is offline   Glenn Anderson 

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:58 AM

Thanks Jim
Yes as I suspected your "Marshall" slide is a genuine Keihin, Marshall is only the distributor to retail dealers ONLY. They DO NOT sell to the public just like Tucker Rocky, etc. So please in future reference just say a 6.0 slide with NO notch at the bottom, [this is important!] and most likely is the reason for the no blubber.

You didn't say which is which but fortunately you can see a 1 MM difference, the bottom slide is your stock 7.0. If your proficent with digital calipers, measure your stock 7.0 and you'll get close to 7.6 MM. It's almost impossible to get the exact measurement but you should be able to get within .2 MM.

I used to have a link directly from Keihin showing the tech info concerning their slides, but that has since been deleted and I never saved it to file. I can direct you to a thread on Ktmtalk where this same question was asked and JD jetting fortunately had a print out of the tech info I lost. I'm NOT making this up. All Keihin slides will physically measure .6 taller than what they are marked. That picture you posted on Ktmtalk of the slide package is correct, a 6.0 slide [6.6 cut] You do indeed have a 6.0 slide, NOT a 6.5.

The ONLY reason I'm anal about this is because it appears there are at least 3 riders here and probably more that are misinformed on slide # and their physical cut measurement. This is important because a .5 MM difference will make a VERY noticeable change in the low throttle jetting. It is the same change as the 1/2 clip needles make, if your familiar with those. BTW, fyi, if you change needle clips on your NOZH, try N1EH for a 1/2 clip richer difference. You can split clip 3 NOZH into clip 2.5 and 3.5 for precise tuning. You can use a .018" shim washer to do the same but I do not suggest using unless just testing or in a pinch.

There is a 6.5 slide KTM uses and is what I understand the Lafferty's use. The 6.5 is very hard to find and you DON'T want to buy from KTM. Suzuki used one in the '03 RM250. Most riders just cut a 6.0. However a friend found a source of the 6.5 slide for about $80 which is reasonable if anyone is interested.

Oh, FI is going to be more of a Pandora's box than ambrosia, at least for a few years. Just follow the 4T's that have it. JD Jetting and other companies alreay have black box's to "fix" the jetting. So what is this saying?

This post has been edited by Glenn Anderson: 02 March 2012 - 02:51 PM

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#19 User is offline   Mike Soudas 

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostGlenn Anderson, on 29 February 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

Oh, FI is going to be more of a Pandora's box than ambrosia, at least for a few years. Just follow the 4T's that have it. JD Jetting and other companies alreay have black box's to "fix" the jetting. So what is this saying?


Glenn
and you wonder why I shy away from jetting even with my motor mods.. it is worse than suspension settings or front tire choices.... :blink:

But the 6,5 is sweet.. We got an 8 and dial that in also, agfing with some unorthodox rules, the guy who bought our motor said it was the cleanest and sweetest 300 hunnie ever..
I just got the dyno sheet from him as he paid a shop to do a few runs..
pulls almost 21 HP at 2600 rpm to 59.2 @ 8400, he put on a factory fatty and got 18.3 @ 3100 and 61.7 at 9300, no jetting changes.. better than the original base line, I did at warhorse.

Oh Crap, FI.. it is coming and many many cool things, I have seen some dialed and also a whole slu of port wetting out also, so some issues we had with carbs are enhance or have shown up now with FI.. Some cool thermal imaging shows neat stuff, the Nascar guys have dumped huge money in dialing in the corn fuel and intake tracts say some pics of unreal technology out at Indy from an industry guru..

FI will help but it IS NOT PLUG and PLAY or TWIST and GO..
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#20 User is offline   JIM AIELLO 

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:19 PM

I just slapped on a Pro Circut pipe to my 2011 Ktm 250xc. ROCKET SHIP! I had to get one after Motocross Action said it added 3+ horsepower. Riding in the street it's a front wheel lifter. Power seems progressive but pulls hard from the mid to top end without a hit. I didn't notice as big of a change as this with my Fatty. This was like wow!
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#21 User is offline   Luke Snyder 

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:12 PM

I am going to try a Scalvini on my Husky WR250. PC and FMF both make a pipe for mine, but with the PC you have to get the silencer with it. Scalvini makes a full carbon fiber silencer that I am dying to try.

http://www.enduroarm...-factory-pipes/

This post has been edited by Luke Snyder: 01 March 2012 - 09:13 PM

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#22 User is offline   Mike Soudas 

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:11 PM

Like this, we have the matching silencer on it, CF tip only, Ti body... Figured the full Carbon Fiber may get beat up once we get into the rock runs..one crash off the start and there it goes but bling factor is High.
Attached File  tmpipe.jpg (21.73K)
Number of downloads: 10

JIm

The PC was always a nice addition, we tested it on the 300 and results did not imrove that much but on the 250 it always made a difference but woods guys always want lowend, smoother power.. no arm wrenching power, most hate leaning up over the bars ..LOL...
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#23 User is offline   MARC GROSSMAN 

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostLuke Snyder, on 01 March 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I am going to try a Scalvini on my Husky WR250. PC and FMF both make a pipe for mine, but with the PC you have to get the silencer with it. Scalvini makes a full carbon fiber silencer that I am dying to try.

http://www.enduroarm...-factory-pipes/


Luke, I have the full carbon Scalvini on my TM 300. Pete at Motoman is not importing them but got me one because, well......it me! Actually I asked very early in the process of him becoming a distributor for them and he special ordered me one. The regular silencers are super trick too so I wouldn't be too disappointed in having one of those either! Mikey at Cycle Playground can order you your pipe and silencer as they are Scalvini dealers.

You know, you guys could solve all these KTM issues by buying a TM and just riding it..........jus sayin!
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#24 User is offline   Mike Soudas 

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:10 PM

Marc, not to spin this thread but the TM does flippin ROCK. Mikey raced the AOPEN, his physical ability is returning and near the end he able to race for most of a lap, so at pace he said "the bike wants to be raced, the faster you go the better it gets to the point of wow this is getting too easy/scarey.. LOL

Tom Cichion ditched his KTM300 for a TM 450MX .. he had 300's for 3 years and came off a 450f and a 250F... He was running second from a DEAD LAST START (missed the kicker twice) after 1 lap, then settled in for a 5th out of 21 riders. Mikey set the bike up on Saturday after Tom rode it an around around his house. Tom's comments as he acted like a kid in a candy store were, Bike is lighter than my 300XC, starts one (I need to remember a full kick not a 2 stroke stab), It handled AWESOME for a STOCK suspended bike, I HAVE NEVER RODE a new bike off the floor that was able to be raced like this one, some of it may be do to Mikey's set up tips but he didn't ride his much either.

Mikey did like the Exhaust on his 300, nice power all over and more to spare..
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#25 User is offline   JIM AIELLO 

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 07:37 PM

View PostMike Soudas, on 09 January 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Jim

Great info.. You can tweek rear sag to get he 20.5 feel..



PS I have a head with your name on it.. send me the old XC one.. The SX head is flawed like the XC head... SX head just adds compression...it does not help combustion..

Mike,
I tested the head mod you did for me today on my 2011 xc250. Unless I did something wrong, the stock head was giving me a compression test of 170psi. Yours was 190psi. I had my richer Keihen slide and Nozh needle already in the bike which helped with the responsiveness but the head mod definetely added to it. The front wheel lifted as the bike went through the powerband and into the top end. Seems to rev higher too, nice. My 2012 revs higher with the Pro Circut Platinum 2 pipe and sx head but lacks the torque your mod had. I wonder if I should send you the sx head or the stock 2011 xc250 to modify next. Definetely added torque through the power range. Very nice. Cheap too. Pump gas btw.

My latest mod to my 2012 was a Ktm hardparts radiator fan. With Vp 4.4 at $20ish a gallon I wanted to run pump gas in my bike and see how the bike reacted at Sandylane. The radiator fan with an inline thermostat kicked on several times through the tight sections. I always overheat my bikes in the tight stuff and running half pump, half race gas seemed to be a good fix through the years. The fan is a good alternetive and a must on my xc250f. It turns on a lot less often on the xc250 2 stroke but always does when charging through a points taker.

maybe there's a cheaper race fuel that burns cooler you guys know of. It's been about 3 years now but I use to use Vp red and I don't know how much that is now per gallon.
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#26 User is offline   MARC GROSSMAN 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:25 AM

View PostJIM AIELLO, on 25 March 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostMike Soudas, on 09 January 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Jim

Great info.. You can tweek rear sag to get he 20.5 feel..



PS I have a head with your name on it.. send me the old XC one.. The SX head is flawed like the XC head... SX head just adds compression...it does not help combustion..

Mike,
I tested the head mod you did for me today on my 2011 xc250. Unless I did something wrong, the stock head was giving me a compression test of 170psi. Yours was 190psi. I had my richer Keihen slide and Nozh needle already in the bike which helped with the responsiveness but the head mod definetely added to it. The front wheel lifted as the bike went through the powerband and into the top end. Seems to rev higher too, nice. My 2012 revs higher with the Pro Circut Platinum 2 pipe and sx head but lacks the torque your mod had. I wonder if I should send you the sx head or the stock 2011 xc250 to modify next. Definetely added torque through the power range. Very nice. Cheap too. Pump gas btw.

My latest mod to my 2012 was a Ktm hardparts radiator fan. With Vp 4.4 at $20ish a gallon I wanted to run pump gas in my bike and see how the bike reacted at Sandylane. The radiator fan with an inline thermostat kicked on several times through the tight sections. I always overheat my bikes in the tight stuff and running half pump, half race gas seemed to be a good fix through the years. The fan is a good alternetive and a must on my xc250f. It turns on a lot less often on the xc250 2 stroke but always does when charging through a points taker.

maybe there's a cheaper race fuel that burns cooler you guys know of. It's been about 3 years now but I use to use Vp red and I don't know how much that is now per gallon.


Jim, I currently use VP110 in both my KX2502T and my TM. It works really well. I don't cut it and I'm not sure of the price per gallon as I buy it by the 30 gallon drum.
I rode one of Mike's modded bikes a couple of years ago and it was impressive for sure! My TM doesn't need any more power or torque IMO the thing can be scary as it is!

I also I'm a big fan of PC pipes and have been for years. But I would recommend checking out the Scalvini pipes. I have to say I'm super impressed! They are not plated so they take a little work when you wash the bike but they look cool as he!! and work amazing. The difference in the way my bike made power was incredible.
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#27 User is offline   Jeffrey Pasqua 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:17 AM

View PostJIM AIELLO, on 25 March 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostMike Soudas, on 09 January 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Jim

Great info.. You can tweek rear sag to get he 20.5 feel..



PS I have a head with your name on it.. send me the old XC one.. The SX head is flawed like the XC head... SX head just adds compression...it does not help combustion..

Mike,
I tested the head mod you did for me today on my 2011 xc250. Unless I did something wrong, the stock head was giving me a compression test of 170psi. Yours was 190psi. I had my richer Keihen slide and Nozh needle already in the bike which helped with the responsiveness but the head mod definetely added to it. The front wheel lifted as the bike went through the powerband and into the top end. Seems to rev higher too, nice. My 2012 revs higher with the Pro Circut Platinum 2 pipe and sx head but lacks the torque your mod had. I wonder if I should send you the sx head or the stock 2011 xc250 to modify next. Definetely added torque through the power range. Very nice. Cheap too. Pump gas btw.

My latest mod to my 2012 was a Ktm hardparts radiator fan. With Vp 4.4 at $20ish a gallon I wanted to run pump gas in my bike and see how the bike reacted at Sandylane. The radiator fan with an inline thermostat kicked on several times through the tight sections. I always overheat my bikes in the tight stuff and running half pump, half race gas seemed to be a good fix through the years. The fan is a good alternetive and a must on my xc250f. It turns on a lot less often on the xc250 2 stroke but always does when charging through a points taker.

maybe there's a cheaper race fuel that burns cooler you guys know of. It's been about 3 years now but I use to use Vp red and I don't know how much that is now per gallon.



Hey Jim,

Did I red that correctly VP Red? Do you mean the old 118 Red Maximal or C-5? We could talk for hours about race fuel but I will keep it short. Tested them all in race cars boats, bikes with a lot of dyno time for the past 25 or so years. Best bang for buck. Cam 2 Purple 50/50 super pump gas. Has the lead to keep you cool and help with wear, more then enough octane for any two stroke with or without mods, right specific gravity and you can get everywhere. General pump price varies, 1/2 cost or less then VP 4.4 and about 30-40% cheaper then C12. If you want bulk (55gal)let me know ;).

Jeff
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#28 User is offline   Frank Weaver 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:17 PM

Jeff, Marc, Jim:

Have you tried the Sunoco 100 octane unleaded available at select Sunoco stations? I used it in my RMX with RM piston and gaskets 64/40 with 93 or 94 octane. Straight 100 lost me revs and fould plugs as the burn was too slow and straight 94 would overheat da-ding-ding DING DING DING. I'm using it in my RM, but haven't ridden that much.

Right now, the Sunoco is about $7.00/gallon.
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#29 User is offline   Jeffrey Pasqua 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:05 PM

View PostFrank Weaver, on 30 March 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Jeff, Marc, Jim:

Have you tried the Sunoco 100 octane unleaded available at select Sunoco stations? I used it in my RMX with RM piston and gaskets 64/40 with 93 or 94 octane. Straight 100 lost me revs and fould plugs as the burn was too slow and straight 94 would overheat da-ding-ding DING DING DING. I'm using it in my RM, but haven't ridden that much.

Right now, the Sunoco is about $7.00/gallon.



Hey Frank,


Yes.
"Sunoco GT" is designed for the weekend street car racer to be legal on public roads etc. Being that it is unleaded you loose most of the benefit of good in race fuel, the lead. Sunoco Ultra is 93 in most stations now hard to even find the 94. Basically its just helps raise the octane to help with your detination problem. Not sure of your set-up, nominal compression ratio's certianly play a big factor along with your timing and jetting provided the motor is sound. GT is not my choice of fuel but I would take it over pump gas any day! Specific gravity is a little heavier then Cam 2 purple and others. Hope that helps.

Jeff
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#30 User is offline   Mike Soudas 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:32 PM

JIm

the 170 then 190 mark is what I try to get... no more than 190 for mortals... Mark road Mikeys rocket 300, 215psi + VP U2 at the time etc etc.. As for your other machine the head mod is a huge plus, we can go more mid, low, or top...your call... If you like the U4.4 then I can tailer to that but pump junk may not like it,,

Marc, ride our TM300MX, my mods added a crisper, stronger, cleaner low end, longer stronger mid and took away a tad of the upper stratosphere revving.. Still will out pull my Hot Rod KTM 63+ HP motors I have built... I hope to dyno the TM this summer when we and if we slow down...

Jeff,
Race fuel wars , I have a few gold stars and ate some crow over the years LOL...

I have had nothing but exploded motors on CAM2 sold in my area. Race Car guys won't buy , only the classic car buff will grab some... Using a Digitron and other test media, it is all over the place from load to load and if stored in vented outside tank, it flops around too.. When fresh from a clean tanker it is not bad.. The spec are so so from a dirt bike imo...SG is fair but distillation curve varies..
MAybe you get better stuff.

I NEVER compare or use a race fuel designed for a car unless it is a good general cross over fuel. Specific 2 stroke fuels provide piston crown cooling at hi RPM, crisp off idle throttle response... Single 4 strokes can use a bit different fuel as it does not need piston cooling but likes a crisp throttle, the intake track in a 4 stroke can handle fuel differently than the open crankcase of a 2 stroker,,,
Car race fuels have evaporation curves that take advantage of long intake runners that conduct heat, higher curves also resist vapor lock in cars. Bikes can get vapor issues but a bit more lead way is in place most of the taime..

Sorry for my rant... You may or may not agree and that is cool, I always drain the brains of any petro chemist I can find, I have some cool buds at MIT and Chevron/Phillips/Conoco .. Some of their info is overwhelming and does not pertain to us... so I do advocate the 50/50 plan for many many racers and riders..

Oh I have seen Renegade Bike fuels do awesome in the FI 250 4strokes used in Supercross and out doors... I hope to get out to RHC CAMP in Michigan this summer to hang with Tuf Racing guys (Ron Hamp and Scott Venning,) and the Renegade mixologist..

THANKS JIM FOR YOUR TESTING..... I know it works and will improve as we go.... Posted Image
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